Kawasaki Rail Car is the same manufacturer who won the M8 bid, so they seem to be familiar with what the MTA wants, and as of now, it looks like the M8's are holding up pre
tty well, so it's not far fetched to assume that we can expect a pretty darn good railcar out of Kawasaki.
So the final proposal that is set to go before the MTA board is for 92 M9 cars at a price not to exceed $1,834,888,620. The base order would provide the LIRR with enough cars to replace the aging M3 fleet on a one-to-one basis.
The contract also includes additional options that the LIRR (and Metro-North) would be able to exercise if they wanted to get more M9 cars (presumably to cover expansions in service, like East Side Access). Together, the LIRR and Metro-North would be able to order a grand total of 584 M9 cars from Kawasaki. The $1.8 billion figure above includes all base order cars and all the option cars (no, the LIRR isn't paying $1.8 billion for only 92 cars (that's $20 million per car!)).
The money for the 92 car base order is coming from the MTA's 2009-2014 Capital Program. Funding for any future option cars will come from future Capital Programs.
But the initial bid includes cars for the LIRR only. The 92 M9's to go to the LIRR is the only thing set in stone at this point. If Metro-North were to order some M9's it would only be as an option a little further down the line. From what it looks like, Metro-North might not be exactly sure that it wants to order some more MU's for their Hudson and Harlem Lines fleet, but they still have a little while longer to decide.
The M9 car would be exactly the same for both the LIRR and Metro-North. The cars would be designed in such a way that they could operate on either system without having to have any technical modifications made to them. Since the systems have grown to the point where they are pretty much the same, with the exception of the two different types of third rail (which will be solved by reversible third rail shoes like the ones we see on some of the M8's), and the cab signaling systems (which could be solved by simply delivering the unit with everything necessary for both cab signal systems to work).
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| Rendering of a finished M9. (Photo credit: MTA) |
- The M9's will not be interoperable with the M7's. As per the RFI, the two different unites need to only work together for non-revenue moves, so we won't be seeing any mixed M7/M9 consists like we did with the M1's and M3's.
- The M9 cars will build on the successes of the M7's and M8's, namely having AC traction systems, HVAC systems for improved reliability and comfort, improved diagnostics, and larger windows.
- The M9'have single-leaf doors and automated announcements played inside and outside the train (most likely the exact same announcements we enjoy today).
It should also be noted that this contract does not include the M9-A bid, that contract will be awarded at a separate point later down the line. The M9-A cars will be specially modified cars for the LIRR that will be interoperable with the M9's.
(and just to clarify any possible confusion here, the M9's will be for both railroads. The M9-A will be for the LIRR only. The LIRR will be getting both M9's and M9-A's. Metro-North will only be getting M9's. Metro-North will not be getting any M9-A's)
In conclusion, this is an exciting step forward for the LIRR. When ESA opens the LIRR is going to have a much larger need for rolling stock and these M9's will be well-used when the LIRR expands its operations into Grand Central. Very soon Kawasaki will begin designing the M9 cars, and we won't be too far away from the first cars rolling off the assembly lines then!
What's the difference between the M9 for both and the M9-A for the LIRR?
ReplyDeleteSee my comment below.
Delete~ Patrick @ The LIRR Today
Two billion is a pretty big sum for a supposedly "broke" railroad.
ReplyDeleteLake of MU ability between an M-7 and M-9 is a huge mistake, while the M-9 and M-9A need to be the exact same car since MN and LIRR paths never cross. The M-7 and M-7A have many customizations, the most obvious being rooftop air chutes on the MN M-7A. Cab signalling and automatic speed control differences are significant between the two railroads, and are expensive equipment to needlessly equip all cars with.
ReplyDeleteMTA is letting vendor software license issues determine their operations, just as there are 4 species of New Technology Cars on the TA's "B" Division between the R143 and R160. Chicago's CTA does not have this issue with the Bombardier 5000's series cars being delivered, and the future 7000's will be interoperable with them as well.
Not having the M9's and M7's being interoperable is probably for the better. Chances are the M9's would have been build with slightly different breaking systems and the like, so there would always be that chance of them not working well together. Believe it or not, the M1's and M3's did not work well when mixed (which is why MN never mixed their M1's and M3's).
DeleteThere's no real critical need to mix M7's and M9's. Just like there's no need to mix M7's and M3's today. As long as the equipment coordinator does his or her job right, there should be plenty of each car to go around.
~ Patrick @ The LIRR Today
As long as they don't rock like the M7's do! Sometimes I have to hang on if we roll through DIVIDE too fast haha...
ReplyDeleteWhile the M9's might be a little bit heavier as FRA crash test standards have gotten stricter in the last 10 years, I would stay holding onto those handrails through DIVIDE if I were you!
DeleteWhat I wouldn't mind seeing, though, is some sort of auto-WD40 spraying system so those darned trucks don't squeak constantly!
~ Patrick @ The LIRR Today
Just to clear up some confusion surrounding the M9 vs. M9A situation, I looked over all of the press releases and documents put out by the MTA and taking that into consideration with what others have said on places like Railroad.net, here's what I've come up with:
ReplyDeleteThe M9 order will be one order for BOTH the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North. It will be the same exact car. Same seating configurations, same door closing alarms, same HVAC vent location thing. The same third rail shoe (they'll have the double-sided third rail shoe that is seen on some of the M8's) so there will be no technical differences. My guess is that they'll also have both cab signaling systems installed (maybe with a slide out cover over where the aspects go so they can just change what the lights mean and not have to have too many aspects). Other than that the only real difference between the M9's for the LIRR and MNCR will be who's name is stenciled on the side and what color they paint the front. The base order of 92 M9's for the LIRR will be funded through the MTA's 2009-2014 Capital Plan. Funding for future LIRR and MNCR option cars will come through later capital plans.
Now the M9A order will be further down the line. This order will be for more cars for the LIRR only. These cars will be visually similar and interoperable with the M9 cars, but might be slightly different technically. The M9A contract may go to Kawasaki, but it doesn't necessarily have to (any qualified builder can get it). Funding for the M9A Cars will likely come from sources other than the MTA's Capital Program. They'll be directly paid for by federal funds in conjunction with the East Side Access Project. Furthermore, it has been rumored that the cars ordered for East Side Access will differ from the LIRR cars in several ways. There is still consideration being given to forming a new operating authority to run trains into and out of Grand Central. Similar to the NYAR agreement, a non-union entity would be formed to operate over LIRR tracks. So this might tie into that in some sense. I have also heard rumors (nothing convincing) that mentioned something about maybe the LIRR trying something out with 'belt-pack'-technology, so maybe the M9A's will that have that added feature to some extent to.
That's my understanding of the situation surrounding this. Let me know what you think.
~ Patrick @ The LIRR Today
They plan to run 40 - 50 % of their Manhattan service to ESA, which is a combination of what is now run to NYPS, Brooklyn and the electric Hunterspoint trains. I doubt they will use a separate fleet or ban M-7's from there. A train may go from NYPS to Babylon and back to GCT. There is no way LIRR unions will tolerate half of their service going to another entity, especially a scab outfit.
ReplyDeleteIt does not really matter who funds the cars as to where they would go. Some of the M-1's, I believe the first 270, were financed by the PA-NYNJ, functioning as a investment bank, others by UMTA, yet the M-3's were paid for by the 1979 bond issue. It does not place any restrictions on where they run. It is true MTA Capital Construction is building ESA, not the LIRR, but then NYPS and all the river tunnels were built by Pennsylvania Railroad Tunnel and Terminal Company, not the PRR per se.
Seats on the MN M-7A's all face in the opposite direction of LIRR's. We'll see who wins that battle.
I do wish they would get away from that yellow and black livery. It is bland, and does not match any corporate scheme of the MTA or any of it subsidiaries. If MN M-8's can have 1950's McGinness-era red and black, why can't we have orange and gray ? I think orange shows up better for visibility and bleeds better through fog anyway. In the 1960's I remember seeing the orange blob over mile away of an approaching train, and before the headlight became visible.
Back in September I sent an e-mail to the MTA about the differences in the M9 vs. M9A order. I finally got an official response a couple of days ago:
ReplyDeleteResponse By Email (Susan McGowan) (11/26/2013 05:06 PM) wrote:Dear Dr. O'Hara:
Your recent e-mails (130917-000400 and 131123-000065) inquiring about the M9/M9A procurement process were received via the MTA Customer E-Mail System.
The M9A car that you refer to in the RFEI is a separate Federal Procurement for LIRR cars required to support East Side Access.
LIRR and MNR will both be receiving M9 Cars, but only the LIRR will be receiving M9A Cars.
I hope this information is helpful. We appreciate your interest in the LIRR.
Sincerely,
S. McGowan
So as it looks now, there will be one version of the M9 car for both Metro-North and the LIRR and then there will be a separate M9A procurement that will go slightly differently just for the LIRR later on down the line.